I'm speaking as someone who has been kicking around this scene for about 4 years, and has made a great deal of friends with serious, dedicated individuals in the Japanese scene keeping the subculture alive, but when it comes to gothic fashion, specifically in the younger scene, do Japanese people overdo it??

I just know my first impression as a child seeing people like Peter Murphy, Diamanda Galas, or Rozz Williams wearing white makeup with big hair and black ornate fashion, it really worked to create an eerie sinister vibe to the music, making the musicians look androgynous and inhuman..... even nowadays, gothic musicians like Anna of Sopor Aeternus or Tilo of Lacrimosa, using the same kind of effect.

However, in Japan, people seem to think you're not gothic unless you slather yourself head to foot in white foundation, glittery contacts, big flamboyant frills, and at least 50 kinds of hair extensions; doesn't really matter what your music taste, or lifestyle/philosophy/attitude is like.

I dunno.... flipping through quite a few event flyers from this year and last, I seem to get the feeling more akin to a circus. The whole serious, sinister, underground vibe is gone.
I know the visual kei scene influence could be partially to blame, considering the majority of young clubgoers I encounter these days would more than likely prefer Dir en Grey or Phantasmagoria over Christian Death or Bauhaus.

Like I said, that doesn't mean I haven't met a great number of serious, dedicated, genuine individuals in the Japanese scene as well.
Just my take on the "young" scene nowadays.

Any thoughts?

I actually have the same question.

I haven`t met anyone in person yet, but I saw them over the net and I wondered about why they overdo it.

Since you have a better experience, I have better information now.

My reply might be worthless, but I just shared my opinion and I have nothing against that actually, I just want to know.

I have been there only for like 3 months but i agree, also you have a lot of dress codes for the clubs, in the shops if you enter with lets say "moderate goth" clothes they look at you like an alien, etc

I think might be because japanese education an society lacks (in my oppinion) more humanity, school and work as long as i have been told by japanese people is harder than in other places, so when they have some rest and time left they give themselves to image to show other people that they are not as everyone else, because after all, between so many people in the street, they like to shine. Is a way to look for attention from others, although i believe this kind of theory is for "young" people most of the time.

And about the VK, i think is more kind of publicity, for example, everyones knows Dir en Grey (i dont like them but even here in Spain people that doesnt know anyother Jgroup) and i personaly like Phantasmagoria. The problem is that the other groups you mention maybe are unknown because they dont focus on the marketing so much.

For example in the CD shops i went to i didnt found those groups, only groups very known like MoiDixMois, Versailles, Phanstamagoria, Mucc, Gazette...and if you are lucky.

I think is also probably due to the fact that if a teenager goes to a concert or look PV of their groups, they will see so much makeup, etc, that they do the same, i have seen too many Mana's makeups...

Btw Loki, i went to Stigmatic in Nagoya the wrong day (1 month before) and the next month i couldnt go T_T, if i go again to Osaka i might venture to some clubs to see the japanese goth scene there.

Yes, Osaka will have Midnight Necropolis here next month.

Generally speaking, I think gothic clothing is very mainstream in Japan, therefore many mainstream youth can very easily get into the subculture, got to events to show off their clothes and makeup, but that's just it. They believe it all to be about clothing, not music, not ideology, just some sort of costume party where people go to show off their clothes and makeup, and pick up girls/guys.
The visual kei scene, which has often been mistaken by foreigners for the gothic scene here, due to the fashion of band members, has probably been the main catalyst in making this kind of clothing a mainstream thing. Visual kei is very mainstream, it's all over MTV, kids watch TV and try to emulate it, even forming little fashion circles around it, completely unknown to the fact that there actually IS an international music/art movement known as the goth subculture, where people dress similarly, but where there's actually a very real dark ideology and way of thinking behind it.

Therefore, in the scene, it's actually quite easy to find who the "real deal" is here, due purely to atmosphere.
Taiki, for example, is usually dramatic enough in his long black hair and vampire fangs, he's got a gothic atmosphere all to himself. He's 100%serious and genuine in supporting the scene and culture/ideology for the last 20+ years.
There's an entire world of difference between him and the massive amounts of young clubgoers slathering themselves in glittery white Mana makeup and lace, but with absolutely no substance or seriousness behind it.

XD i return there in October so will be difficult.

Yeah i agree, is the dinamic of "do what you see", because is hard to think by themselves, is easier to emulate popular groups because they are shown everywhere. If i had enough japanese i would like to discuss that on forums but...i have tried some japanese forums and is imposible yet.

Also if you think about it that happens everywhere, here in Spain 80% of the people that are self called "goths", only know Nightwish, Evanesence, HIM of international groups and then metal groups from Spain. I think that most of the people everywhere in the world doesnt see the goth culture a thes their appropiate way to be but a way to dress in a different way, meet people of the other sex and try to show people that arent as most of the people. Marketing, image...people believe their eyes but doesnt know how to see behind the clothes.

Have you discussed that with japanese people that have grown with the VK near but are really into the japanese goth scene? Maybe there was some kind of change from one tendence to another, for example in Spain also, most of the VK lovers were in the goth scene before and now they are more VK-lolita style.

Is sad but...i think the cult to aspect instead of the mind will happen forever, whereever...

Well guys I missed these terms, I don`t know them. What do they stand for/mean?: Kei, VK and PV.

The Gothic Lolita has been popular, and I just don`t understand it. Okay, draws a lot of the Victorian and Edwardian style, but why is it called "Lolitta"? The name is actually a spoiling female name/female nickname. And too, males wear it. - i`m not trying to be biased for females here

Synbios, I agree what you said about the music but let`s not forget Gothicism isn`t about Music.. I mean they don`t have to know all of the bands whether international or not to be Goths. Take for example me, I am more interested in literature(writing, reading, exploring) and still I know little.

I believe there is a lot of Japanese people on Gothers, and I would like them to join this discussion.

It's not *just* music, but music and art are a HUGE part of it, being that it's an art movement based around an ideology. Therefore, music is rather important/essential. No, an inside out knowledge of bands is not essential, but at least an appreciation for dark music.
"Gothic music" doesn't only apply to gothic rock anymore, but has extended to many different styles of dark underground music including industrial, EBM, darkwave, death rock, neofolk, dark ambient, and even some of the darker metal genres like black metal. It's based upon an artistic idea.

Basically, "visual kei" is a sort of mainstream music scene in Japan that emerged from the japanese metal, punk, and glam rock scenes where bands dress up in big expensive costumes, sort of a "brighter" take on glam/goth fashion, and are pretty much based on their look instead of sound or lyrics/content. They sell their promo photos and music videos at shows often before they even have cds recorded.
It doesn't really have anything to do with the goth scene whatsoever, but recently there's been a few cases of crossing over. The Japanese band Blood, for instance, started off in the visual kei scene, and recently changed their sound to more of a gothic rock sound. Now Kiwamu, their guitarist owns a label that tries to build bridges between scenes, introducing VK fans to darker genres of underground music, while introducing the rest of the world to japanese music and culture.
Also bands like Speed id and Blam Honey try to combine goth/industrial music with strong visual appeal. Mana from Malice Mizer/Moi dix Mois has sort of extended the hand of friendship between scenes, signing to the Trisol German gothic label and playing Wave Gotik Treffen, as he used quite a bit of goth-esque subject matter and imagery in MM, and even changed to more of a gothic metal sound in Moi Dix Mois. He claims to listen to bands like Christian Death, Miranda Sex Garden, London After Midnight, Sopor Aeternus, Lacrimosa, etc.
Many VK bands also cite the Japanese post-punk/goth band Buck-Tick as an influence due to their mainstream success and charismatic frontman. Buck-Tick have nothing to do with that scene, however.

Anyhow, as for the whole gothic lolita thing, I've never really understood it. It's basically a Japanese fashion fad based on dressing in cute doll-esque fashion.
Personally, I think it looks good on attractive asian girls only. It looks horrible on men and unattractive people. Even attractive foreign girls tend to look somewhat awkward in it, unless they have petite doll-like features.

I never said that is only music, even in a post we have discussing about the term goth you will see my oppinion is quite diferente, but the first thing that makes the japanese people go to that tendence is the music and their favourite bands patterns. Also i have to admit im more into the way of thinking and the music than in the art.

Yeah also agree about the goth lolita, i really thing is atractive in japanese cute girls and bad in foreigners most of the time, but to tell you the truth, i believe that is because they feel themselves more "japanese", at least some people here are like that.

PV is just a Promotional Video, like a video clip.

BLOOD new work is great compared with old cds that sound like shit in my oppinion, i hope they keep the work.

Also i like some groups that, when you see all the lolita girls screaming for Kamijo (Versailles) or the same for Mana (MdM) or Ruki (Gazette) that
makes me wanna kill every one of them. Makes me think if people would like them the same if they werent wearing expensive clothes and were "cute".

Anyway, maybe because Japan is far from the goth focus in Europe like Finland or Germany and they dont have almost links to the christianism, they dont consider being goth like an ideal in some way, just like another bunch of brands. The more far you go from the center of the movement, the more it changes.

Well, I just didn`t feel that the Visual Kei cloths are expensive as much as I felt they are so many. I mean they look stuffed, but from the outside.

Loki, you said well about the Gothic Lolitta suiting Japanese ladies more, better than I could have said. Yes, their features help.

And as Synbios said, " The more far you go from the center of the movement, the more it changes." Gothic Lolita fashion might not suit others for the different features and qualifications.

Check this out for

Cosplay Psycho Le Cemu

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/3400/psycho200503252lx2.jpg

Insomuch, sometimes they don`t even look Gothic.. Just like this one I saw now http://headbangersblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/3.jpg

What`s so Gothic about it? I`m sure there`s like this in any other country. It`s not that they might exist ONLY in Japan. I believe nothing is definite. But it`s pretty common there.

Yes, that photo points out a lot of what makes the younger japanese "neo-gothic" scene more funny than anything. Tell me that picture has any serious qualities whatsoever..... it's more like making fun than anything.

That's the point, that's kinda the vibe I get from a lot of the events. Just sort of fun dress-up.

Gothic subculture is an art/music/etc. subculture that emerges from old occult culture. It's a very real movement.

I suppose the reason why it's taken more seriously in europe isn't just religion, although that's a very common source of inspiration. I believe it's more of a revolt against the modern world.
The european scene also has ties to other occult and pagan/wiccan scenes. This could make antichristianism a very common attitude, due to it's historical oppression of europe.
Japan never really had to go through that. Japan suffers more from corporate capitalism, racism/xenophobic thinking, americanism, and institutionalised conformity..... plenty of things for an artist to take a stance against!!